Careel 18 reefing

This is for any general chat and information. Posts on specific topics covered in other forums will be moved to keep all forums active and relevant. No political posts will be tolerated, and if you have had your fill of TSP then a political post is an easy way out the door"
Post Reply
RobRedWitch
Midshipman
Posts: 11
Joined: Nov 29th, '20, 11:07
Has thanked: 1 time

Careel 18 reefing

Post by RobRedWitch »

G'day brains trust;
Anyone else got a careel out there of a stack of wisdom on main sail reefing systems on small boats I can tap into ?
On my Careel 18 (#389) I've got a boom furling system, seems to me to be super annoying so I'm looking to get rid of it. Would you recommend lazy jacks and some line system for the tack and clew ? I've got 2 "settings" of eyelets on my mainsail.
I'd like to rig it so I can easily take a reef singlehanded
Photos or links would be super handy
Thanks in advance!
Rob
pdandy
Admiral
Posts: 5144
Joined: Jan 20th, '08, 21:09
Location: maffra vic
Has thanked: 118 times
Been thanked: 109 times

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by pdandy »

Keep the roller so you can store the sail on boom, but set up slab reefing.

I ran 6 mm spectea from the BACK of the boom, up to the reefing point, back on the other side of the sail to a pulley slightly behind the reefing point, and then forward to a cleat on the boom that I could reach whilst standing in the companion way . For the front reefing point I just moved the cunningham ( downhaul) .

Make sure you can access main halyard, cunningham, and the rear reefing lines on both directions when reaching with the sail out against the shrouds - getting caught sailing down wind and unable to put a reef in makes for a very interesting transition when you finally bite the bullet.....
noelex 25 green velvet
Tezza
Able Skipper
Posts: 1010
Joined: Apr 2nd, '17, 16:31
Location: Brisbane
Has thanked: 36 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by Tezza »

pdandy wrote: Jul 18th, '21, 09:57 Keep the roller so you can store the sail on boom, but set up slab reefing.

I ran 6 mm spectea from the BACK of the boom, up to the reefing point, back on the other side of the sail to a pulley slightly behind the reefing point, and then forward to a cleat on the boom that I could reach whilst standing in the companion way . For the front reefing point I just moved the cunningham ( downhaul) .

Make sure you can access main halyard, cunningham, and the rear reefing lines on both directions when reaching with the sail out against the shrouds - getting caught sailing down wind and unable to put a reef in makes for a very interesting transition when you finally bite the bullet.....
I like that set up . Always wondered what the cleat on the boom was for.
Couple of questions though.
1. Do you use the topping lift to hold the boom up
2. What do you mean you moved the cunningham.
I have presently single line reefing but find it a bit of a pita especially if the line jams ,usually
Up or down from the luff reef
Sonata 6 Mango
pdandy
Admiral
Posts: 5144
Joined: Jan 20th, '08, 21:09
Location: maffra vic
Has thanked: 118 times
Been thanked: 109 times

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by pdandy »

The cleat under the boom is for the outhaul - there should be a line running inside the boom to a pulley at the back of the boom? Used to flatten / depower the sail ( from memory, 10-15 knts) . Everything remains in place when you roll the sail onto the boom at the end of the day. Such a fantastic design.

I THINK my reefing lines had a cleat beside this, but it was 10 years ago.

I used some 3 mm spectra as a topping lift ( also doubles as a "spare halyard" for cat 5 n racing ) , cleating off at the mast. it made rigging the boat much easier - the boom lived inside the cabin, my topping lift was long enough I could hook it onto the tab at the end of the boom, then that would support the boom end as I stood in the companionway connecting boom to mast.

By moving the cunningham - I had an s hook on the cunningham ( diwnhaul) , when it was time to reef I would uncleat the cunningham, move that hook up to the first reefing point, ease the halyard, tighten the cunningham ( now front reefing line) , tighten the rear reefing line, then raise the halyard back up. I had a mark on the halyard to match the reefed point .

Do you have a copy of " the careel bible" ? Heaps of useful information on boat set up from multiple generations - one of the great things about the careel was the support network.
noelex 25 green velvet
pdandy
Admiral
Posts: 5144
Joined: Jan 20th, '08, 21:09
Location: maffra vic
Has thanked: 118 times
Been thanked: 109 times

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by pdandy »

Tezza wrote: Jul 18th, '21, 10:55
I have presently single line reefing but find it a bit of a pita especially if the line jams ,usually
Up or down from the luff reef
I agree, single line reefing can be a pita when things go wrong, especially if you are lazy like me and prefer not to need to use winches. Using a double system as described means the forces are easy enough for me to do by hand. Plus I can guestimate if it's the front / rear causing issues. It takes a few seconds longer to put in a reef .
noelex 25 green velvet
User avatar
madmission
Able Skipper
Posts: 1334
Joined: Oct 27th, '06, 09:36
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 29 times

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by madmission »

I am not familiar with cc roller reefing but use B20 roller reefing and contrary to popular opinion i would not change it for the world.
My experience is an adjustable main topping lift is necessary (same for slab reefing imho) to get it to work as it should.
The angle of the boom is critical to get an even roll and bolt rope / sail slug separation from the mast and maintain a good shape.
One major advantage is that it infinitely adjustable , not just 1 or 2 reefs and sail balance can be fine tuned to all conditions.
Screen shot 2016-05-27 at 9.39.15 PM.jpg
Screen shot 2016-05-27 at 9.27.54 PM.jpg
No one system is perfect and slab reefing rarely solves all the problems and sometimes causes new ones. Friction is enormous when leading single line systems back to cockpit.
My advise is hasten slowly save boat dollars for more important improvements. :wink:
Tezza
Able Skipper
Posts: 1010
Joined: Apr 2nd, '17, 16:31
Location: Brisbane
Has thanked: 36 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by Tezza »

I like the idea of using the cunningham line for the luff reef as well . I could leave the hook in the cunningham cringle and move to reef when required. Coming from keel boats my big expensive mistake when getting the Sonata 6 was applying old school bigger boat principles . Eg. for new main two reefs plus cunningham, foot bolt rope etc.
I know nothing about roller reefing except mainsheet has to come off end of boom although inboom roller reefing seemsto be the new thing for cruisers
Sonata 6 Mango
pdandy
Admiral
Posts: 5144
Joined: Jan 20th, '08, 21:09
Location: maffra vic
Has thanked: 118 times
Been thanked: 109 times

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by pdandy »

Tezza wrote: Jul 18th, '21, 13:20 I like the idea of using the cunningham line for the luff reef as well . I could leave the hook in the cunningham cringle and move to reef when required. Coming from keel boats my big expensive mistake when getting the Sonata 6 was applying old school bigger boat principles . Eg. for new main two reefs plus cunningham, foot bolt rope etc.
I know nothing about roller reefing except mainsheet has to come off end of boom although inboom roller reefing seemsto be the new thing for cruisers
On my c18 , there was a tab at the rear of the boom with a central bolt so the boom could roll separate to it. Top of tab had topping lift, bottom had main sheet. Theoretically you could roller reef the main from the front, but I had converted to slugs at the mast and a loose foot so that was why I set up slab reefing. ( plus I gad a REALY nice laminate sail )

I set up AND USED 2 reefing points - the c18 has a relatively big main , and I sailed on lake wellington regularly back then. Anything over 30 knts I'd put in the second reef, pack away the headsail, and be VERY glad it was a mk 3 careel 8) .
noelex 25 green velvet
User avatar
Furstin
Admiral
Posts: 5355
Joined: Oct 17th, '06, 08:26
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 106 times

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by Furstin »

So Shane, leach tension off the breeze is just mainsheet and a heap of traveller down?

User avatar
madmission
Able Skipper
Posts: 1334
Joined: Oct 27th, '06, 09:36
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 29 times

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by madmission »

Yep mat you do lose your vang.

but this helps 8)
radial.jpg
Last edited by madmission on Jul 18th, '21, 18:47, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
bachus
Yachtmaster
Posts: 4206
Joined: Jan 24th, '13, 20:43
Location: Bayside, Melbourne
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 153 times

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by bachus »

On my castle.
Air blocks attached to sister clips x 2
Mating sister clips permanently attached to the 2x reefing points (luff and leech) (yes a bit ugly - but I go for function over form)
Line from port side at end of boom up to air block, down to STB side of boom and cheek block, along boom to cheek block, up to luff air block, down to pulley at mast mast, back to jammer in line with winch.
I always leave dock with reef #2 fitted (airlocks located at second reef) and the reefing line run. I can move to #1 reef if required.
With this I can winch in the reef under most conditions.
Main halyard is marked for each reef.
The next sneaky trick is the second reef has eyelets across the main. I have light bungy cord permanently fitted. From luff to first eyelet - there is a plastic hook fitted before the line goes through the eyelet to the other side of the main, another hook before again passing through the next eyelet and so on in and out until the leech then back in the opposite direction with hooks placed until reach the luff then tie off. When second reef is pulled in - reach up and grab a hook, pull down the bungy passing the hook under the boom and up to the line the other side of the main. Repeat along the length of the main. This can be down by standing in the companion way. So the sail is now secured under second reef conditions.

Updates: diagrams to explain the words
IMG_8948.jpeg
The hooks are actually on alternate sides.
IMG_8949.jpeg
Last edited by bachus on Jul 23rd, '21, 10:32, edited 2 times in total.
Jim
Castle 650 #96. Mystic.
Towing with Ford Territory SZII TX AWD
RobRedWitch
Midshipman
Posts: 11
Joined: Nov 29th, '20, 11:07
Has thanked: 1 time

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by RobRedWitch »

pdandy wrote: Jul 18th, '21, 11:13
Do you have a copy of " the careel bible" ? Heaps of useful information on boat set up from multiple generations - one of the great things about the careel was the support network.
Nah mate, can't find a copy anywhere. Anyone got a link to it online ?
Unfortunately the careel forum has shut down, such a shame to have all that valuable information *poof* gone !
User avatar
bachus
Yachtmaster
Posts: 4206
Joined: Jan 24th, '13, 20:43
Location: Bayside, Melbourne
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 153 times

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by bachus »

Can someone provide the old URL. The way back machine may be able to display the now lost content - if so it can be captured.
Jim
Castle 650 #96. Mystic.
Towing with Ford Territory SZII TX AWD
RobRedWitch
Midshipman
Posts: 11
Joined: Nov 29th, '20, 11:07
Has thanked: 1 time

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by RobRedWitch »

madmission wrote: Jul 18th, '21, 11:29
My experience is an adjustable main topping lift is necessary (same for slab reefing imho) to get it to work as it should.
The angle of the boom is critical to get an even roll and bolt rope / sail slug separation from the mast and maintain a good shape.
I must say that's the first I've heard of someone loving roller reefing. Well I am a fan of the saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" so I've got a couple questions;
Do you use your topping lift to maintain that good boom angle ?
And when you mention the bolt rope seperation do you just mean by hand keeping it taught away from the mast as you roll the boom ?
And for your clew and tack do you have any lines to tension these ?
Also, probably a silly question but I can't find anything that's stopping my sail from just unfurling once rolled up? Could you elaborate ?
Thanks again!!
User avatar
madmission
Able Skipper
Posts: 1334
Joined: Oct 27th, '06, 09:36
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 29 times

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by madmission »

No worries i will do my best
The topping lift is used to set the boom angle while reefing , once reefed and the topping lift is slackened right off.

The correct angle is when the sail will wrap evenly and parallel , even tension on both luff and leech that keeps the foot flat.

the separation is fine tuned by hand but if the boom is at the correct angle the luff should keep its distance from the mast & gooseneck if the luff builds up and fouls the gooseneck region then you have the boom too high at clew end .

to help with this separation i installed a tack point set back from the gooseneck see picture.
20210718_194306.jpg
i have only foot outhaul and tension the foot with it.

see picks of the handle arrangement , every full turn lines up with a hole that the handle slides into thus locking it in position.
IMG_20140103_083704.jpg
IMG_20140103_083711.jpg
My method is Ease the main completely , Adjust the topping lift , move to the mast , uncleat the halyard , expose the handle , as i ease the halyard i take up the slack with the handle rolling onto the boom until the desired depth of reef is achieved , lock off handle . move back to winch and tension luff , release topping lift , sheet on and away we go …simple. I have no problem doing this while on the wind and to almost a square run.
Hope this helps.
Have you got slugs or bolt rope ? I have both and works fine with both.
User avatar
madmission
Able Skipper
Posts: 1334
Joined: Oct 27th, '06, 09:36
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 29 times

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by madmission »

You can see in this picture the luff has rolled too close to the gooseneck , although its not a problem here , if i needed to reef further it may mack the job more difficult.
DSCF3589.jpg
This picture shows the original tack position before moving it back to aid separation
IMG_20140103_083737.jpg
Contrary to Pdandy i dont roll sail onto boom to store on of off the water , i prefer to drop and flake onto boom.
DSCF0018.jpg
User avatar
zebedee
Admiral
Posts: 11567
Joined: May 9th, '07, 01:05
Location: Bayside Melbourne
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 298 times

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by zebedee »

bachus wrote: Jul 18th, '21, 17:30 On my castle.
...
The next sneaky trick is the second reef has eyelets across the main. I have light bungy cord permanently fitted. From luff to first eyelet - there is a plastic hook fitted before the line goes through the eyelet to the other side of the main, another hook before again passing through the next eyelet and so on in and out until the leech then back in the opposite direction with hooks placed until reach the luff then tie off. When second reef is pulled in - reach up and grab a hook, pull down the bungy passing the hook under the boom and up to the line the other side of the main. Repeat along the length of the main. This can be down by standing in the companion way. So the sail is now secured under second reef conditions.
That took a bit of processing power to interpret, but it's much cleverer than what I had on the Dennis; short lengths of bungy knotted both sides of the sail, one per eyelet, with plastic sister clips on the ends. May I steal your idea? (If not, well, that's why we call it "stealing"!)
A man's boat is his Castle. The Gippsland Lakes are my moat. Castle 650 #10, Roller Coaster.
RobRedWitch
Midshipman
Posts: 11
Joined: Nov 29th, '20, 11:07
Has thanked: 1 time

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by RobRedWitch »

madmission wrote: Jul 18th, '21, 20:03
the separation is fine tuned by hand but if the boom is at the correct angle the luff should keep its distance from the mast & gooseneck if the luff builds up and fouls the gooseneck region then you have the boom too high at clew end .
Yeah great tip on the boom angle, I haven't thought of that. Mine is an absolute pain, when hand rolling the mainsail away it rides up onto the gooseneck and even unclips it (perhaps a loose spring in the locking mechanism it's very easy to undo)
Still thinking I'm leaning toward slab reefing as I don't have a means of keeping the boom rolled tight like you do with the handle.

I'm thinking I'll install some form of lazyjacks and individual clue and luff reefing lines

I'm thinking I'll also keep the hand boom rolling as it's convenient for packing the mainsail away
Thanks for your help mate
User avatar
madmission
Able Skipper
Posts: 1334
Joined: Oct 27th, '06, 09:36
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 29 times

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by madmission »

It sounds like you have a totally different arrangement.
Good luck.
User avatar
bachus
Yachtmaster
Posts: 4206
Joined: Jan 24th, '13, 20:43
Location: Bayside, Melbourne
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 153 times

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by bachus »

I updated my verbal description of my Castle single line reefing with some diagrams above.
Last edited by bachus on Jul 23rd, '21, 13:43, edited 1 time in total.
Jim
Castle 650 #96. Mystic.
Towing with Ford Territory SZII TX AWD
User avatar
colect149
Yachtmaster
Posts: 3007
Joined: Oct 28th, '06, 23:55
Location: Somerville Victoria
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 59 times

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by colect149 »

I had roller reefing of the Main of the Ultimate 18. Only used it a couple of times, gave up and installed Slab Reefing. But madmission is a serious sailor and sails in all sorts of conditions. Makes me think I gave up on the roller reefing too soon.
Boatless. Kia Sportage 2L FWD, Jayco 13 Sprite, 1967 MGB roadster, 1932 Austin 7 Box Saloon,
Previous:- TS500, Ultimate 18, Cole 23, Laser, Ultimate16, Farr6000, Hardy 18 Motor Sailor, Farr7500, Farr5000.
southcoast52
Midshipman
Posts: 8
Joined: May 1st, '21, 17:44

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by southcoast52 »

I had roller reefing on 2 boats and they were very good even better at keeping things tidy, I found there are specific needs when reefing. I had a fully battened main sail, the battens were designed when the sail was made to line up with the boom if they don't the rolling will twist the battens and cause problems , mainly bulging in the roll giving an uneven roll. a non battend sail obviously would not have this problem but they tend to creep up when being rolled, the fully battened sail on mine was taken to the batten which laid along the boom keeping the sail from creeping and there was no need to fit an out haul in the reef position . I had 7 battens fitted giving me excellent choice of sail reduction , a luff of 34 feet, there was a fence added to the boom to stop the sail from creeping onto the goose-neck jamming it. Also the main sheet had to be released as when rolling the leach would go tight and make furling tight, the topping lift was set just loose when the main was fully tensiond close hauled. I had mine set up and could all be done from the cockpit.. to reef run the boat as close to the wind , drop the boom to let the sail flap eg no wind load, release the main halliard being careful to only let about a meter and relocking it , pull the furling sheet after the tension was released and wind it up, when the first batten reached the boom , lock the roller sheet ,tension main halliard, (If not reefed enough repeat the operation usually I would with a 7/8 rig reduce sail down to the hounds, this set up could take up to 40kn) re-trim the main sheet and set course to your destination. I could reef in any condition of the of wind never left the cockpit , could do it by myself and I am 80 years old, probably took 10 minutes at the most Most of the time was taken setting the auto pilot to a close hauled condition. Probably not the best sail shape when reefed for racing, but who races, ease of operation is my pleasure South coast 52
RobRedWitch
Midshipman
Posts: 11
Joined: Nov 29th, '20, 11:07
Has thanked: 1 time

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by RobRedWitch »

bachus wrote: Jul 23rd, '21, 10:27 I updated my verbal description of my Castle single line reefing with some diagrams above.
Brilliant! I'll be using this idea for sure ! Looks cheap and simple. Do you have lazy jacks ?
User avatar
bachus
Yachtmaster
Posts: 4206
Joined: Jan 24th, '13, 20:43
Location: Bayside, Melbourne
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 153 times

Re: Careel 18 reefing

Post by bachus »

RobRedWitch wrote: Jul 25th, '21, 16:02
bachus wrote: Jul 23rd, '21, 10:27 I updated my verbal description of my Castle single line reefing with some diagrams above.
. . . . . Do you have lazy jacks ?
I guess Mystic had them in the past - the pulleys are on the spreaders for example. But never used them. Mystic came with a fully battened main (Sydney thing it appears) that would make lazy jacks easier to use I guess.
Jim
Castle 650 #96. Mystic.
Towing with Ford Territory SZII TX AWD
Post Reply

Return to “General”