First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

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Joséjones
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First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by Joséjones » Jan 5th, '19, 17:27

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We took Lady Jane out for our first sail on New Years day and launched at Martha Cove. The ramps were excellent although the trailer parking and prep areas are on a slight slope that made raising the mast a bit of a challenge. Also, there is no wash down facility at this ramp which I find really strange and the trailer had to wait until we pulled into a carwash in Mornington to get hosed down.

Once we were in the water we had some trouble with the outboard. It had performed fine when I tested it in the wheelie bin at home, but at the marina it started, ran for about 30 seconds and then wouldn't start again. Perhaps this was due to being transported laying down (throttle side down) in the cockpit. We ended up motoring out of the marina using the tender's OB which is a little Mariner 4HP and this put a whole lot of pressure on the rudder, making navigating the crowded marina a whole lot more challenging. We put down anchor on the north side of the Mt. Martha bluff, just off the beach there and stayed two nights on the boat which was lovely. The anchorage was very picturesque and perfect with the light winds we had coming from the south west. We have friends who are members of the Mt. Martha Yacht Club who very graciously let us use their facilities and the kids had a great time paddle boarding and kayaking around the beach.

On our last day I was ferrying kids and gear back to the boat in the tender and on my last trip the Mariner OB failed. It was going into gear but the prop was not turning. Looking at it, the prop was spinning freely and was not connected to the drive shaft. Looks like a trip to the OB mechanic for this one. Anyway, thankfully I had oars and the we got everyone aboard safely and the main OB on the yacht started first pull and gave no trouble on the way home. We even got to do a bit of sailing, although the winds were light and a bit flukey.

Getting the sails up opened up a whole Pandora's box of new troubles as the mainsail got stuck 3/4 of the way up the mast and there was no way we were going to get it fully raised. We had to sail with a reef in which made sailing very slow in the light winds. Also, the roller furler on the jib is a horrible thing and only wanted to jamb and get stuck all of the time. Releasing the jib, the furling line kept coming off the drum and we needed to constantly monitor it as we pulled out the sail and put it on the drum when it went tried to wrap itself around the forestay. Furling the sail, it was incredibly stiff and the line jammed so we had to go up for'rard and furl by hand. Not ideal but it was ok in the light conditions. I had replaced the old line which was stiff and worn with new line of the same dimensions that I bought at Whitworths but it could well be that we didn't rig it properly. I will have to get someone with a more experienced eye to take a look at it before the next sail.

This was our first outing on Lady Jane, so I always expected to encounter problems and we considered it a bit of a shake-down cruise. It's unfortunate that so many things came up, but it was lucky that we had perfect conditions that were forgiving of our mistakes and technical troubles. The other thing that we have learned is that rigging and packing up the boat is a major pain in the behind, so I think we will be looking for somewhere where we can (affordably) keep her with the mast up in the near future.
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DIGGER-NZ
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Re: First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by DIGGER-NZ » Jan 5th, '19, 17:39

The main not coming up could be a few things:
-Mainsheet not free so it’s prevemting the boom raising and in turn the main
-Cunningham not free, same as above
-Reef lines not free, as above
-If it has a fixed topping lift that could also prevent it

Basically anything that is attached to the main/boom, if cleated/tangled/knotted can prevent the main raising fully. I’m constantly forgetting to un-cleat something and wondering why the main isn’t raising.
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Peter Yates
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Re: First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by Peter Yates » Jan 5th, '19, 17:58

Wow, that is really a lot of problems to all be happening. Do you have someone with some expertise to assist you in solving some of them next time? Good idea to stick to really light days until you get your means of propulsion (both wind and motor) sorted out.

Does you main have a bolt rope or slugs? Bolt ropes can stick in various ways whereas slugs tend to run more easily up the mast slot.

The little outboard may have done a shear pin on the prop. The main outboard is impossible to diagnose without seeing what happened.

Good luck!
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Joséjones
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Re: First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by Joséjones » Jan 5th, '19, 18:16

Hi Peter, you are exactly right about the little OB. It was the shear pin, completely disintegrated inside the prop. Is this the sort of piece that is readily available?

As for the mainsail, we have slugs and I did put some silicone lube on the track before we rigged her, but it's a fully battened sail and I suspect that we might have got a batten stuck in the track or something. I haven't had another go at raising it, but we have a Facebook friend from New Zealand who owns a Sabre TS coming to Melbourne next weekend and he has very kindly offered to go over our boat with us and diagnose a few troubles. Hopefully these are traps for new players that I am learning.

With regard to the main OB, I'm going to say that it stalled and then I flooded it trying to restart. It has run fine since then, but to be honest I am deeply suspicious of 2-stroke motors. Even the whippersnipper has it in for me.

Cheers,

Joe

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Peter Yates
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Re: First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by Peter Yates » Jan 5th, '19, 18:33

The shear pin is easily replaced and is designed to protect the motor if you hit an object with the prop. Basically the prop stays on the shaft and the pin shears rather than putting a shock through the whole drive shaft etc. It is a pretty normal occurrence and you just need to replace the stainless shear pin and then carry a spare in future and a minimal tool kit.

Others will disagree, but I have always found trailer-sailer furlers to be unreliable unless they are set up just right. The more rigid, foil based furlers are much better, but they make rigging much harder and they cost more. If you go to mast-up storage, you might want to look into a really good furler. Otherwise you can rig up a jib downhaul very cheaply which will at least enable you to dowse the jib quickly if needed.
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barnaclephill
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Re: First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by barnaclephill » Jan 5th, '19, 19:43

At least you got to sail a bit Joe, and motor.
Lots of things can interfere with the hoisting of the mainsail; all the things that Digger said. Sometimes I get mine jammed a little, so I lower it a metre and then look up and try again. Usually it's because I tangle it with the spreaders, because of the angle of the sail to the wind, and the battens catch on something, or the halyard catches. Easiest to point yacht into the wind, so the mainsail is downwind and can't tangle anything.

You can introduce a shackle close to the furler's drum, so that the infeeding rope lines up with where it should go. I feed the rope through the shackle so it goes into the drum at a good angle. The shackle is tied by rope somewhere, because I didn't have space on the foredeck or the right position for the pulpit. So it's a makeshift remedy to feed the line in at a good alignment. The other thing that could have gone wrong there is that the forestay may not have been taught enough, and so the forestay and furler had a bow in them and wouldn't rotate freely. Try it in the Thomastown Yacht Club yard on a calm evening perhaps?

As Peter said, shear pins and split pins are readily available from boat/fishing shops and prevent any jolt from transmitting through to the drive shaft. You motor should have come with some spares, and a needle-nose pliers, but you can easily buy them. Maybe $5- 10 for a set of 2 each.
I had the same motor problems in Refuge Cove once. My solution was letting the motor rest, in case the cylinder was flooded with vapour or liquid petrol - I'm no mechanic. The other solution would be to drain the float valve, which involves unscrewing the lower screw on the float bowl (upline of the carburettor), so it drains out - it'll only be 10 ml or so. (especially if you have a blockage) Then you could crank the motor to bring in clean air, and then tighten the float bowl screw and start again. There'll be books/articles/videos online about all this.

The other thing with motors is to use up the fuel in the system before transporting. I turn off the fuel tap and air vent about 20 seconds before I reach the beach so that all the fuel in the fuel lines and carburetor has emptied as i hit the beach. When i tranport the motor on its side, there is therefore no fuel to smell and spill and nothing in the carby to cause a problem the next time.

Not all public launching ramps will have wash down facilities, because a local council would be paying for the fresh water. Not all public ramps will have a convenient tap to fill up jerry cans for drinking water. Some places are friendlier than others.
Thank you for the old fuel you gave me, it lasted me just over a week without any problems or coughing.
You photos above are fantastic. You were on a steep learning curve. That was the bad news. The good news is that you have learned some things, identified some issues, but you enjoyed the boat trip as family time. And next time there will be less problems and more fun. My first dinghy was purchased on a Saturday, and I bought a "how to sail" book on the Monday, including details of how to rig the dinghy. The next weekend was my first sail and I capsized on my own, then took out my 2 year-old and we capsized and he was most upset. Later I got caught in trees and tore the mainsail. After the first time, it gets better. It gets easier as you begin to learn skills and enjoy it. Taking a friend along on my boat, to instruct how to rig, to sail and to fix a motor would also have helped.
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Re: First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by INMA » Jan 5th, '19, 20:38

Joe, all things considered, it sounds like you had a great first outing.

The yacht is still floating, there is no broken bones, no blood and no divorce.

There is no mast up storages at our sorts of reasonable prices on the water near Melbourne.

I'm not sure what main outboard you have, it sounds like it worked fine to get home. If it motored ok for some time, its probably ok for the longer term. The new clean four strokes are wonderful till you have dirty fuel problems then the pain is the same as a dis functional 2 stroke. You can take the outboard discussion to the outboard forums. The 9.8hp Tohatsu sailpro is the model that suits your hull, it might be available in electric start.

You probably need to raise the mast at home to sort out the rigging issues. Check the mast track for damage, some times the track gets hit and bent while on the trailer.

I've used the Bay for fifty years, I can't figure out where you anchored. My experience in that area is limited but I believe you anchored in an exposed open part of the Bay. If I'm right, you were lucky.

Your small outboard should have a spare shear pin under the cover with a spare split pin. Read the manual, you may need to buy two sets of spares. Buy a spare spark plug and check the existing plug.

Your main outboard sounds ok, a service is basically:
a hot run on the boat for as long as possible under load. Use fresh petrol and Castrol JASO FC at 75:1 ratio. The hot run burns all the carbon out of the cylinders and lubricates things like rubber seals.
wash the entire outboard with dish washing detergent then hot run it in tha bin for 15 minutes. Working on clean engine makes life easy.
change the sparkplugs setting the gap at 80% of standard. (unleaded fuel and modern oils let you use less gap and get a stronger spark for starting.
put a new filter on the fuel supply hose.
run it in the bin for 10 minutes in forward and reverse the adjust the idle speed and mixture, (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1X-Digital- ... SwEUdcB8Ra) will help with the idle speed.
change the oil in the gearbox.
change the water pump impeller
grease the mount bracket and clamp screws.

(dealers on eBay can help with parts or the local outboard shop.)

Getting an old outboard serviced at a mechanic is often too expensive. Others in Melbourne might be able to suggest a workshop. The real value of doing a service with parts is 1 hour and about $50 in parts. BUT dealers hate working on old outboards because owners won't pay for things like broken bolts and will also complain about anything that goes wrong after the service. Dealers will quote $400 to turn you away or put enough money in the job to put up with winging owners. If you can do it yourself, its safer and you will know what you have. Remember a new outboard becomes an old outboard after a few years and sevices.

NOTHING absolutely NOTHING improves a small outboards reliability than a days work near flat out. If you can't get your outboard to be reliable flat out for a day, then you can't rely on it in an emergency. That is the same for all marine engines including inboards in keel boats. Secure the yacht to a jetty and run it flat out in forward for an hour if you have any doubts.

When you start a two stroke outboard up after storage, its normal to have a cloud of smoke as the cold engine burns with the choke and burns all the old oil laying in the engine and fuel system. After a while the exhaust cleans up as the old oil is burnt. The Castrol JASO FC oil burns with less smoke.

Spending a long weekend at Paynesville looks great compared to PPB.
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Anyone ignoring the environment, is probably neglecting our children's future.

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zebedee
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Re: First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by zebedee » Jan 5th, '19, 20:44

Peter Yates wrote:
Jan 5th, '19, 18:33
Others will disagree, but I have always found trailer-sailer furlers to be unreliable unless they are set up just right.
As one of the others who are supposed to disagree, I think Peter has nailed it. There are lots of ways for a furler to not work right, so they require persistence to get them right. I've got a sort of hybrid between a simple furler with a wire luff jib and a full on rotating foil; being a hanked jib I can always drop it if the furler fouls up. Keeping the line on the drum seems to be the most common problem.
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Re: First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by pdandy » Jan 5th, '19, 21:05

Do as inma suggested and check the mast track for damage, but do it with mast down - just slide a sail slug along it to find the section that has been dented in transport. I have some nice wide kingchrome tyre levers that are perfect for negotiating with damaged mast tracks.....

If the track is ok, then check that the halyard runs freely ( the old metal and rope type can jam as the junction hits things - 6 mm spectra is sooooo much easier to live with - waterfunmam on ebay, order enough for main and jib halyards with some extra for everything else you'll want to replace after realising how easy life can be.
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Re: First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by INMA » Jan 5th, '19, 22:02

Joe with respect to the ramp not having wash down facilities, The business would need to have EPA permits for discharges into the Bay for anything washed down.

The car wash would have water recycling, grease traps and emergency systems to control discharges into the sewer. That is part of the cost of washing using their systems.

If you are washing the salt from axles and hubs, be very careful to avoid injecting high pressure water into the seals on the wheel hubs. Injected water will quickly damage the grease in the hubs causing a failure. When using pressure washers on the brakes and axles, keep the water jet back far enough that it won't damage rubbers on the brakes and hubs.

Remember to lubricate trailer rollers before launching the hull.

I had a look at the area you anchored in on Google, it left you exposed and on a lee shore from the likely strong winds typical on the Bay. My guess is 80 % of foul weather comes over Geelong, 15 % of summer foul winds come from Melbourne, and less than %5 of foul winds come from the East. Anything with open waters facing Geelong to Melbourne is unsafe. If I was anchored during the day where you stayed, I'd be permanently watching towards Geelong and Melbourne for changes in the weather. You were lucky.

This is what happens at Mornington when the fronts hit the area from the North.


https://www.google.com/search?q=morning ... aZvAOCrmuM:
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Re: First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by Joséjones » Jan 5th, '19, 22:43

Thanks everyone for all the tips and advice. There is so, so much to learn about owning a boat and I knew it would be a steep learning curve. But this is all part of the adventure and the great thing is how willing other boat owners are to share their knowledge and provide support.

I agree we were very fortunate with the weather. I was watching the forecast closely and was prepared to pull the boat out or spend the money for a visitor's berth at Martha Cove if there was the slightest hint of a northerly. With the wind from the south or south east, the spot we had was pretty secure. Those photos in the link that INMA sent sent a chill down my spine because I realise how serious the consequences can be if the wind changes.

With regard to the mainsail, thanks for those suggestions, I will check the track all the way along the mast while it's down. I did put some lubricant on and checked the slugs but this was after I put the mast up so I could only get up a little way. I'll check out the rest and iron out any dents before I put it up again. The furler is slightly more complicated; we have a system with a foil and the jib is not connected to a halyard but is shackled with a spinner to an eye at 3/4 up the mast. I guess it will be a matter of perseverance and experimentation to figure out the best way to rig it and get it to work. The previous owners told me that they had no trouble with it so maybe we're just not doing it right.

The outboard is a whole new world to get to know. I have limited mechanical expertise, but I'm encouraged that a lot of the servicing can be done at home. Lady Jane has a Tohatsu 9.8 two stroke long shaft which seems a pretty common OB for trailer sailers of her size. I'll do a bit of digging around on the Youtubes to see if there are any instructional videos that might be helpful.

One of my jobs for the near future is to pull the wheels off the trailer and check the bearings. Can this be done with the boat on or do I need to float her and do it on an empty trailer? my plan is to jack up the trailer and put wheel stands on before trying to remove the studs, but some of them are pretty rusted and horrible looking and will require a fair bit of force to budge I would think. Also, two of the bearing buddies are shiny and quite new looking while the other two (on opposite sides) are black and covered in grease. Do these usually need replacing or just cleaning up and re-greasing? INMA, I'm interested in what you use to grease the rollers, is the bearing grease Ok?

After all of this, I am really looking forward to going out again on Lady Jane, knowing a whole lot more than I did the last time.

Cheers,

Joe

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zebedee
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Re: First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by zebedee » Jan 5th, '19, 22:59

Joséjones wrote:
Jan 5th, '19, 22:43
The outboard is a whole new world to get to know. I have limited mechanical expertise, but I'm encouraged that a lot of the servicing can be done at home. Lady Jane has a Tohatsu 9.8 two stroke long shaft which seems a pretty common OB for trailer sailers of her size. I'll do a bit of digging around on the Youtubes to see if there are any instructional videos that might be helpful.
Ray(onthebay) has two of those motors; I've watched him dismantle, clean, and re-assemble the carby out of one of them in the dark on the mudguard of my trailer. He's a mechanic by trade and can probably answer any questions that may arise.
One of my jobs for the near future is to pull the wheels off the trailer and check the bearings. Can this be done with the boat on or do I need to float her and do it on an empty trailer? my plan is to jack up the trailer and put wheel stands on before trying to remove the studs, but some of them are pretty rusted and horrible looking and will require a fair bit of force to budge I would think. Also, two of the bearing buddies are shiny and quite new looking while the other two (on opposite sides) are black and covered in grease. Do these usually need replacing or just cleaning up and re-greasing?
There's no need to remove the boat from a trailer unless it gets in the way of whatever you're trying to work on. We've (Ray and I) replaced the entire suspension structure under a couple of different trailers with the boat in situ; jacking up one wheel at a time to do hubs is straightforward.
I don't have any faith in bearing buddies and will leave it to someone else to comment on them.
INMA, I'm interested in what you use to grease the rollers, is the bearing grease Ok?
The most demanding aspect of lubricating roller spindles is that you keep dipping them in water. Lets face it, they don't turn very fast, they're not precision bearings, and they will never get hot!
If you're a motorcyclist you may already own a can of aerosol chain lubricant, intended to be very sticky and resistant to washing off, and equipped with a long thin pipe for applying it in just the right place. Or just use grease!
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Re: First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by barnaclephill » Jan 5th, '19, 23:25

Here's a short article about the carburettor in the Tohatsu 9.8: https://unsinkable2.com/how-to-fix-toha ... arburetor/
He runs the outboard out of fuel so there is nothing to evaporate between uses.
The article goes over the 3 things required for fire/outboards which are a spark, air/compression and a fuel supply. He had a blocked valve in the carby, but there is also a small screw to drain the carby in case of water in the fuel or other blockage.
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Re: First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by colect149 » Jan 6th, '19, 08:24

For a 22 foot boat there are few furlers that will work well apart from the foil types which roll around the forestay. Typically non foil types will work in light conditions but when the wind gets up they tend to foul onto the forestay when you are trying to furl. On smaller boats, some have the forestay on a swivel (as does mine) and they work OK. IMO on larger boats it is a foil or a downhaul.
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Re: First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by zebedee » Jan 9th, '19, 23:58

Joséjones wrote:
Jan 5th, '19, 22:43
...With regard to the mainsail, thanks for those suggestions, I will check the track all the way along the mast while it's down. I did put some lubricant on and checked the slugs but this was after I put the mast up so I could only get up a little way. I'll check out the rest and iron out any dents before I put it up again.
I've been having trouble with sail slugs sticking in the mast track during the last week or so too; I'm pretty sure it is being caused by sail slugs designed for a smaller track on Jim's more modern Castle mast. The slugs get tipped up by the tension in the sail and wedge in the track in my mast. The solution in my case is obviously a new mainsail with the correct slugs!
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Re: First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by barnaclephill » Jan 10th, '19, 11:53

The solution in my case is obviously a new mainsail with the correct slugs!
Well, emptying the budget is one way to solve a problem. Otherwise new sail slugs are only a dollar or two, and there are several models and sizes available. Another solution is to spray some Mr Sheen or other silicone lubricant onto/into the mast track. And more desperately, to use some fine sandpaper to narrow the slugs a little. A new, crisp mainsail is a very nice thing to have too, and it should last you 15 years.
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Re: First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by Peter Yates » Jan 10th, '19, 12:36

I think Zeb is saying that his slugs are too small, so sand-papering them aint going to help!
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Re: First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by Jaime » Jan 10th, '19, 20:39

barnaclephill wrote:
Jan 10th, '19, 11:53
A new, crisp mainsail is a very nice thing to have too, and it should last you 15 years.
We all secretly want a reason for new sails. I personally can't wait to shred my 40yr old ones!
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Re: First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by zebedee » Jan 10th, '19, 20:59

Yes, the slugs are already too small. They're attached with webbing sewn to the sail, so replacing them wouldn't be cheap either.
And the reason I've got Jim's old mainsail was that I was already thinking about a new main, so I snapped at the chance to try a loose footed fully battened main. It's much better than the original, but even so it was a freeby for a very good reason; it is knackered!
Of course the problem is that a new main will have lead time, which means it won't happen before next season.
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Re: First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by pdandy » Jan 10th, '19, 22:47

zebedee wrote:
Jan 10th, '19, 20:59
Yes, the slugs are already too small. They're attached with webbing sewn to the sail, so replacing them wouldn't be cheap either.

Of course the problem is that a new main will have lead time, which means it won't happen before next season.
You might be surprised how easy it is to replace those slugs, and it might even be viable to recut the old sail - ask the sailmaker whilst getting a quote? ( and then getting the new sail because new sails are sooooo nice)
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Re: First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by zebedee » Jan 11th, '19, 23:21

You obviously didn't look at the main when you dropped off the winch the other day!
Also, it's got the wrong sail number on it.
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Re: First sail on our Sabre 22 - Now we know what we didn't know!

Post by MargGannet » Jan 14th, '19, 10:55

Talk to a sailmaker about the numbers, too, or just get some and replace them yourself...

It is amazing what those guys can do with an old sail, and a usable spare is handy for cruising especially. But a new sail is rather nice!
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