Updating our Siren 24

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Pand JR away
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Updating our Siren 24

Post by Pand JR away » Dec 4th, '18, 13:16

We are starting to explore options for bringing our Siren 24 into use. Hull, topsides, sails, rigging and motor and trailer are in good condition. It is mainly the internal, living and electrical fittings that require attention. The first job being considered are the instruments and sensors. She is currently fitted with 1980 vintage VDO log, wind and depth gauges and sensors. I have contacted the new mob responsible for VDO marine in Australia a couple of times and my gear is outside their living memory and so they have referred my questions to Switzerland who aside from saying my equipment was the first issue of Compact II series any information or recommendations have been absent.

Given the hull is aluminum and the hole sizing for the through hull fittings appear to be specific to VDO I was hoping to continue with this brand. The lack of response has encouraged me to look at alternatives.

Has anyone who has changed over Compact II sensors got any advice and is there any thoughts on best / appropriate brand alternatives. I have an interest in forward looking sonar but this is not really necessary. I would like a fish finder but this is just being hopeful as I'm note sure the technology would improve my chances anyway and I really don't want to increase the number of through hull fittings.

Any thoughts?
Pam and John
Sunshine Coast QLD

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Re: Updating our Siren 24

Post by INMA » Dec 4th, '18, 15:40

Welcome to TSP.

Your old VDO instruments are very old analog electronic technoligy and will not be salvageable.

The best question to ask is whether you need new instruments? I don't see an urgent need for instruments.

I suggest focusing on sailing as soon as you can do it safely with the gear you have.

Spend money on new safety gear and new sailing cloths like hats and gloves.

You say the outboard looks good, most old outboards on second hand yachts turn out to be unreliable. Always use fresh petrol and oil at the correct ratio (if its two stroke).If you have the skills hot test it in a drum, service it then hot test it in the drum again. Once its done a half hour running in the drum, you can hot test it at a boat ramp on the stern. Pick a time when the ramp is quiet, back down the ramp till the outboard is at a working depth. Then start the outboard running it in forward and reverse at half throttle then full throttle in forward. The longer you run it the better as the work burns all the oil and rubbish out of the engine. Better to breakdown on the trailer than out on the water.

Rig the mast and sails at home and figure out how the various lines are run. Avoid running out and buying new lines until you've sailed a few times.

You don't say whether you are an experienced sailor, join a local club and ask for help.

On your maiden trip avoid taking anyone other than essential crew.

You will almost certainly have issues with the trailer, the first launch will be challenged, make sure the keel is up, you have a long bow line to the winch post, oil or grease all keel rollers and use the trailer tilt if the trailer has one. lifting the bow up with the trailer tilting is the best way to get the hull rolling off the trailer.

Expect to replace old rollers on the trailer. Service both axles before any long trips.

You can break down these tasks throughout the forums to get specific advise.

A bit more information about yurself, crew and how you got the yacht would help anyone to help you.
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Peter Yates
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Re: Updating our Siren 24

Post by Peter Yates » Dec 4th, '18, 16:05

I don't think I will be much help here with ideas on through hull fittings. But I find myself in agreement with INMA about the real need (or otherwise) for lots of instrumentation. Our last decent sized boat was a South Coast 25 of similar vintage to your Siren. It came with a paddle-wheel based speedo which amazingly still worked, a transducer based depth gauge which also worked and a bulkhead compass. The depth gauge was handy, as was the compass. The speedo was more an interest item, a bit like an angle of heel indicator. We sold the boat before we encountered the problems you are facing, but the depth gauge would have been the only thing I would have really missed. Of course, a lot depends on how you plan to use the boat - whether you are planning to race, sail at night, go offshore etc etc. But if you are just going to be cruising inland waters, mainly in daylight, you won't need many instruments.

You may well be a person who is fascinated by technology and love having instruments showing you everything, but if you aren't, you can easily get by (unless you are considering ocean voyages) with almost no instrumentation. So maybe you should heed INMA's suggestions and get out sailing rather than worrying about lots of tech.

Our current boat has just one instrument, called a Velocitek Speedpuck. It is entirely GPS based, portable, has big numerals and just uses AA batteries. It will give you your precise speed over the earth or at the press of a button, your track made good. So, in a way it does some of the stuff a speed-log and a compass can do but without any external power source and without any through hull worries. Even if you bought one for less than $450, you could use it while you contemplated more traditional instruments.
https://www.velocitek.com/pages/speedpuck
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Re: Updating our Siren 24

Post by Jaime » Dec 4th, '18, 23:57

If all you need is a depth sounder/ fish finder, I use a lowrance hook2 4x GPS. Does everything you need and can be had for about $120 new. Transducer would have to mount on the transom though due to the alum Hull. Connect it to the battery and you have a colour gps combo.
**edit** seems like you can shoot thru alum holes. Refer INMA's post below.
Last edited by Jaime on Dec 6th, '18, 08:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Updating our Siren 24

Post by INMA » Dec 5th, '18, 01:30

Most depth transducers will work through an aluminum hull. You glue it in place with a neutral curing silicon forward in the bilge.
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colect149
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Re: Updating our Siren 24

Post by colect149 » Dec 5th, '18, 07:42

For 17 years we got by on the Ultimate 18 with no instruments except a compass, in that time we sailed most inland waters from the Coorong in SA to Moreton Bay in Qld. Once over 20 feet I think some sort of depth sounder is handy.
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Pand JR away
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Re: Updating our Siren 24

Post by Pand JR away » Dec 5th, '18, 09:56

Thankyou for your interest. I will work through the questions. Thought a good start would be a wider picture of the purpose of the boat and the attributes that attracted us to her. Initially our search was focused on a Court 7500. We had inspected a number of other boats about this size.\ before we found the Siren.

Pam and I are the Crew. Pam has had little sailing experience and while I have sailed recreationally since I was a teenager this has been limited to mostly good days on protected water in small boats ie dinghys and a couple of trailer sailers. We have also enjoyed a couple of bareboat charters on the Sandy Straits. We both have completed an Inshore Yachtmasters course and have radio licenses as at one time were were considering sailing further afield.

About a year ago we purchased the Siren 24 trailer yacht from Victoria and eventually had it transported to QLD where it has been stored for the past 6 months. We also own an aluminum version of the Adams 20 which is an ideal little boat for day sailing and over-nighting in the local waterways and beyond but it has limited internal volume and we struggle living /moving about in the cabin. It is uncomfortable. There are a few journeys that we (mainly me with support from Pam) would like to do and to make them pleasant for us we started looking for a larger yacht specifically for these trips. Examples of the destinations on our trip list are the Myall Lakes, Sandy Straits and Murray / Darling Rivers. Pam doesn't really enjoy sailing as such but does like going places and visiting new places. We have discussed the Siren more in terms of a motorhome than a sail boat. It is likely that we will sell the Siren when we have ticked of sufficient adventures from our list whereas the little Adams will stay as it is so easy to handle single handed and is a maintenance gem.

The Siren is close to 40 years old and has benefited from obvious attention to routine maintenance, recent rigging replacement and some new sails not long ago. She appears to be as she was in 1979+. She has had 2 owners and has been well cared for and equipped with quality hardware. Some fittings though are just old which challenges their reliability for extended use. Examples of these are sensors and instruments, wiring, plumbing etc.

The aluminum hull and deck is is very good condition, the original concrete ballast and winch cable has recently been removed and replaced by an experienced yard in Vic. as it was putting pressure on the centerboard case and effecting the boards operation. She is insulated with 1"+ thick foam throughout and all walls and floors are covered in front-runner type carpet The tilt trailer is in good condition and will pass its safety certificate. A quick look at the hubs was positive but these will be dismantled and repacked before and distance is travelled. Her published displacement is 1200kg and I am confident we will be within the towing capacity of the old Landcruiser I believe I will be successful in gaining a permanent mooring very close nearby and under observation however my intention is not to leave it moored for extended periods. The Tin Can Bay sailing club has a storage yard and this is likely to become her notional home.

She is currently equipped with a new /unused 9.8hp Tohatsu 4 stroke with regulated charging coil although that will be probably be removed to avoid registration fees in the short term at least. I have a 5hp available from the Adams.

The jobs list

Given that the hull, topsides, rigging and sails are in good condition and that I don't have a lot of time available at present my idea was to start the job list in the cabin/ living area where I can ponder and plan while still being able to close up until the next opportunity.

A quick list of considerations here are;
Instruments, Old VDO sensors and instruments (Log Wind and Depth)and especially the 2 through hull fittings and tempting possibility of fitting modern data offerings and a fish finder. This is where my first post started as the through hull fittings which are currently water tight are in a confined area which is a bugger to work on for a sustained time. If dealing with this means fitting new fittings or welding the hull then it is best done early.

Communications; Existing old VHF radio and its location.
Storage, locations, access and design
Safety equipment; none fitted
Entertainment music, radio, video
Galley, stove, storage, drainage water supplies, BBQ/ external cooker. Currenty has a large 2 burner metho stove fitted to small bench , a sink with foot pump water supply from single tank under cockpit floor.
Ablutions toilet, shower, hot water. Head locker is to narrow, not drained and no toilet is fitted. No shower
Power, battery, wiring, lighting; navigation, living,area and security, refrigeration, charging, control and backup. Extensive wiring which looks to have been professionally fitted but has been inplace for some time and some parts purpose is not clear. All fittings from main switch board work. Sub swithboards have not yet been tested yet.
Ventilation
Movement and ease of living design. Making living on board as pleasant and stress free as possible.

Other areas of consideration are;
Solar panel placement
Mast raising
Full canopy for motoring without mast or sail
Pam and John
Sunshine Coast QLD

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garymalmgren
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Re: Updating our Siren 24

Post by garymalmgren » Dec 5th, '18, 10:52

Hi John and Pam.
Nice list.

BUT. as John said life is what happens while you are busy making plans.
Here is Gary's list which you can start on tomorrow.

1. Sort out the trailer as INMA said.
2. Take her to a place that is close by with an easy launching ramp.
3. Launch her and find out how it is done.
4. Go for a sail and find out which blocks are not running, which lines are missing and all the other little bugs.
5. Retrieve her and find out how it is done.
6 Bring her home and fix all of the little bugs that have become apparent.
7.Repeat process 3 times.

Then start looking at wiring, gauges and other stuff.

Gary

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Re: Updating our Siren 24

Post by Jaime » Dec 6th, '18, 08:28

INMA wrote:
Dec 5th, '18, 01:30
Most depth transducers will work through an aluminum hull. You glue it in place with a neutral curing silicon forward in the bilge.
Ah right, I thought i read that alum wasn't able to be shot thru. I know they say timber is also a no go.
How about steel?
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zebedee
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Re: Updating our Siren 24

Post by zebedee » Dec 6th, '18, 13:36

Jaime wrote:
Dec 6th, '18, 08:28
Ah right, I thought i read that alum wasn't able to be shot thru. I know they say timber is also a no go.
How about steel?
Sonar uses an acoustic signal rather than an electromagnetic signal; sound travels well through incompressible materials like water, solid fibreglass, aluminium, steel, even a silicon bed without bubbles. Timber is compressible and thus interferes with the signal.
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Tezza
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Re: Updating our Siren 24

Post by Tezza » Dec 6th, '18, 15:37

I have an airmar (Hawkeye) in hull and instructions say aluminium hull ok provided not cored
And less than 1/8 inch thick.

I don’t get the avoiding rego with a 5hp. I have a 20 footer which had a 5hp and rego necessary. Anything over 3 kw.
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Pand JR away
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Re: Updating our Siren 24

Post by Pand JR away » Feb 10th, '19, 18:00

Tezza
I am working from what the fellow and Maritime Safety told me. This is the story

I was submitting the paperwork for a swing mooring and I had jut come from Dept Transport where I was trying to register the Siren. I incorrectly thought anything over 21ft needed to be registered. Her length of 7.6m I was fine depending what motor I had on her. While I have a number of motors, at that time none were fitted and the direct question was "what motor does she have on her now" and at that time she had none, so that was my reply adding I had a 4hp one that I could fit if necessary. Then they asked about her height with the mast up to which I replied that I wasn't sure, but estimated a number as I was unprepared for that question and added that this wasn't relevant as the mast would be taken down often. This caused some confusion and after consulting with colleagues and a phone call the end result was that I was told the boat could not be registered.

I then when to the Maritime safety office and put my mooring paperwork in and was surprised that not having a registered boat was not a problem. We talked about the motor size and I mentioned the 4hp and was told that I could could put a 5hp motor on before registration was needed. This was a large saving in $ so when the Siren hits the water she will have the 5hp on. I did not ask to many questions other than to confirm the 5hp a couple of time and get the officers name.
Pam and John
Sunshine Coast QLD

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Tezza
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Re: Updating our Siren 24

Post by Tezza » Feb 10th, '19, 18:15

Extract from Qld Reg.
“All boats—including personal watercraft (PWC)—with an engine of 3kW or more must be registered when they are on the water in Queensland. If your boat is not used entirely for private recreation or is not owned by a school, a surf lifesaving club or other community group, you will need to get commercial registration.Jan 30, 2018”
5hp is 3.75 kw.
Forget what officer said if your caught it will mean zip.
ALSO insurance will be an issue . If anything happens your not covered.
Rego is only $203pa.
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Re: Updating our Siren 24

Post by Jaime » Feb 10th, '19, 22:16

Rego for something that long is well over 300
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Re: Updating our Siren 24

Post by Tezza » Feb 10th, '19, 23:26

Your right Jamie . $334 . For 6.01 to 10.
Still cheap to be covered.
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Re: Updating our Siren 24

Post by zebedee » Feb 11th, '19, 00:39

At $334 per year, it is time to find a proxy owner to register your boat and trailer in Victoria.
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Re: Updating our Siren 24

Post by Jaime » Feb 11th, '19, 08:26

Sorry Tezza, only know it because I have to register mine... unfortunately I'm 6.2...
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Pand JR away
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Re: Updating our Siren 24

Post by Pand JR away » Feb 11th, '19, 09:41

Yes Tezza you are 100% correct,

I have read the regulations. It is a decision I can put off for a time as the boat will be moored in the side yard for a few months yet. In the meanwhile I can consider how much of a risk taker I am.

I have a 10hp 4stoke that I intend to use when we take her on the bigger trips that we purchased her for. Most of these locations are interstate also and so I have no issues with registering the boat when that is fitted. I don't think I could lift/remove that motor as easily as a smaller one when she is on the mooring.

Victoria is far more generous to boat owners but there are costs to living in paradise. Our car insurance is much more reasonable though. Wheels and roundabouts again.
Pam and John
Sunshine Coast QLD

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Pand JR away
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Re: Updating our Siren 24

Post by Pand JR away » Feb 11th, '19, 15:00

Returning to my original question and acknowledging the replies.

This half of the year is quite busy for us and the likelihood of getting the Siren in the water is small. The theme of Gary's and Inma's suggestions are spot on and the direction I would normally follow and we will when we get sufficient free time to play with her a little. Unfortunately she has had to sit in the side yard teasing us for the past 4 months.

My real issue is finding the time to get a clear run at any significant job. The instruments I mentioned while being on the job list are not a priority but they could be tackled in short bursts when a few hours becomes free and then left until the next couple of hours comes along. I can also do the investigation of what is the best choice anytime. I feel a little better when I am doing something to improve her. We are working on a full length cover for motoring without sail at the moment.

I have spoken to the new agent for VDO marine instruments and this has lead nowhere. I am happy to replace what I have with the same. Whatever I do will require new through hull fittings. Fortunately the 2" holes used by the VDO sensors seem to be a standard size that is used for most other brands. Network compatibility and possibly wireless connectivity will be a key criteria when purchasing but the major brands all offer this and so it is not a determining point. (I am partial to a wireless wind sensor). I have not identified a characteristic that separates any one brands' applicability to our level of need /use and so when the time comes I think price will the important consideration. I have not found an internally fitted sensor that will work with our thickness of aluminium for either navigation or recreational purposes and so a fishfinder doesnt look promising. In the mean time the existing compass and my old GPs60 will be fine.

Garry, the rigging is different from other boats I have had and the size /weight is much greater. I am very cautious about raising the mast and have delayed doing this until there is adequate time and support to do it properly and safely. I suspect some pieces of the equipment used to do this didn't some with the boat, such as the prop to elevate the mast from its traveling cradle and maybe the pole to attach to the mast tp give advantage when lifting the mast. (Is is a gin pole?). There is a second winch on the trailer which I am assuming is for raising the mast. I have been reading about mast raising systems and I need to advance my thinking, make a decision and set something up.
Pam and John
Sunshine Coast QLD

Jaime
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Re: Updating our Siren 24

Post by Jaime » Feb 11th, '19, 21:46

Have a look through this thread for some gin pole ideas.
http://trailersailerplace.com.au/phpBB3 ... =2&t=15728
As for a mast crutch, I have a long galv pole that came with it with a fitting on the end with a roller. It has 2 steel straps bent to shape to attach it to the rudder gudgeons to hold it upright with some batten screws where the rudder pins usually go. I might have to take a pic of this to explain it better.
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