What would I lose or gain by changing my masthead rig to a gaff?

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pdandy
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Re: What would I lose or gain by changing my masthead rig to a gaff?

Post by pdandy » Feb 2nd, '19, 00:08

Jaime wrote:
Feb 1st, '19, 20:43
Why not just simplify the setup? Ditch the furler for a hanked jib, or find a work around for the mast raising for simplicity?

Have a look at the stingysailor blog?
A furler is quicker to set up than hanked on sail. Leave the sail furled and strap everything to the mast for transport, it's just a matter of releasing the ties then making sure you don't bend the furler as the mast is raised ( oneof zebs gin poles wpuld help with that)

Similarly, having a main left on the boom saves time - ready to go.

I'd be recording the rigging process then watching it in high speed to see how much wasted time there is, simplify the set up and only then start considering changing things
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Re: What would I lose or gain by changing my masthead rig to a gaff?

Post by Jaime » Feb 2nd, '19, 07:30

pdandy wrote:
Feb 2nd, '19, 00:08
Jaime wrote:
Feb 1st, '19, 20:43
Why not just simplify the setup? Ditch the furler for a hanked jib, or find a work around for the mast raising for simplicity?

Have a look at the stingysailor blog?
A furler is quicker to set up than hanked on sail. Leave the sail furled and strap everything to the mast for transport, it's just a matter of releasing the ties then making sure you don't bend the furler as the mast is raised ( oneof zebs gin poles wpuld help with that)

Similarly, having a main left on the boom saves time - ready to go.

I'd be recording the rigging process then watching it in high speed to see how much wasted time there is, simplify the set up and only then start considering changing things
Ah right, i thought the furler was part of the issue with the weight etc. I also figure the jib can be hanked whine motoring out of the channel
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mob
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Re: What would I lose or gain by changing my masthead rig to a gaff?

Post by mob » Feb 2nd, '19, 11:01

MartinDreaming wrote:
Feb 1st, '19, 13:54
I've not done it often, and I could improve with practice.
Why not spend a day, or even two, just rigging and derigging your boat. Again and again and again. Until you're quicker and leaner in your method.

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Re: What would I lose or gain by changing my masthead rig to a gaff?

Post by zebedee » Feb 2nd, '19, 12:42

pdandy wrote:
Feb 2nd, '19, 00:08
Similarly, having a main left on the boom saves time - ready to go.
You'd think so, wouldn't you?
My original sail was kept attached to the boom, which meant I had to manhandle sail and boom out of the cabin and onto the gooseneck. Jim's old main is loose footed; I fit the boom first, then fit the slugs to the mast, then simply attach the clew. Much easier, and packing up is even "more quicker"!
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Re: What would I lose or gain by changing my masthead rig to a gaff?

Post by pdandy » Feb 2nd, '19, 14:31

zebedee wrote:
Feb 2nd, '19, 12:42
pdandy wrote:
Feb 2nd, '19, 00:08
Similarly, having a main left on the boom saves time - ready to go.
You'd think so, wouldn't you?
My original sail was kept attached to the boom, which meant I had to manhandle sail and boom out of the cabin and onto the gooseneck. Jim's old main is loose footed; I fit the boom first, then fit the slugs to the mast, then simply attach the clew. Much easier, and packing up is even "more quicker"!
On the c18, the sail was furled around the boom

Topping lift attatched whilst boom in cabin, standing in companionway swing it up and clip in the gooseneck, slip the sail into the feeder and hook up the main halyard / clip my n the vang. Then back to clip on the main sheet. All super easy - gotta love simple / compact boats

Then I went loose footed and it was a pita ! ( but much nicer to sail)

The noelex has slugs along the boom so that sail only comes off when I buy a new one. I really should invest in some of the mast mate sail straps
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Re: What would I lose or gain by changing my masthead rig to a gaff?

Post by guzzis3 » Feb 2nd, '19, 16:15

pdandy wrote:
Feb 2nd, '19, 00:08
I'd be recording the rigging process then watching it in high speed to see how much wasted time there is, simplify the set up and only then start considering changing things
Really good idea.

Martin did say the furler added considerably to the weight. I assume he was lifting by hand. Hanking on takes a few minutes, but furlers can get their knickers in a knot from time to time so I'm not sure hanked on jibs are that big a liability. Likewise main on boom,stored separately, I think it might be a case of individual setup. Even rolling up a battened mainsail.I was looking over some of mine the other day.I usually roll from the bottom but a couple of the dinghy sails I have are pretty much impossible to do that way. Rolling from the head was simple. And then there are people who fold sails....

I think you just have to sort out what's best on your boat and what suits you, as long as it's the same as what I do, otherwise you're doing it wrong.

And buy a Cal14. That solves everyone's problems. And a catamaran. You need a catamaran.

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Re: What would I lose or gain by changing my masthead rig to a gaff?

Post by MartinDreaming » Feb 3rd, '19, 19:05

guzzis3 wrote:
Feb 2nd, '19, 16:15
Martin did say the furler added considerably to the weight.
Yes it does. Its not the numbers of kg, which are few; its the fact that they are distributed along an 8m pole that would make nasty crashing noises if it fell down. My furler has a drum and a foil, which are not heavy of themselves. The main weight gain comes from the sail with its UV strip.
guzzis3 wrote:
Feb 2nd, '19, 16:15
And buy a Cal14. That solves everyone's problems. And a catamaran. You need a catamaran.
Fully agree. Where else do we put the piano?
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Re: What would I lose or gain by changing my masthead rig to a gaff?

Post by MartinDreaming » Feb 3rd, '19, 19:16

Stepped the mast yesterday. It took about an hour. I didn't know shrouds could be so good at getting themselves snagged under companionway hatches.

Anyway, I found one of the problems that has been making stepping difficult - there is a twist in the step. This also explains my failure to get a variant on Zeb's mast-raising pole to work. I'm not sure if the twist is in the step on top of the cabin, or in the base of the mast - I'll need to look at it more carefully. What it does is to slew the mast off to starboard when the mast is horizontal. If you can imagine a clock face with 1200 at the bow, the mast should be pointing to 0600 off the stern. Mine only points to 0600 when it is on its cradle. Raise it a few inches from the horizontal, so it can swing, and it slews around to about 0500. This makes it difficult to get the pivot pin in, and I have to resort to a hammer to force it, which is not ideal.

It needs further investigation. The quickest and cheapest solution might be to ream the holes in the step, and insert ferrules to get everything centred-up. The hole in the mast seems to be bigger than the holes in the step, which is odd, but gives me a bit of room to play with. However, if the base of the mast is off, it would be better to fix the mast.
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Re: What would I lose or gain by changing my masthead rig to a gaff?

Post by MartinDreaming » Feb 3rd, '19, 19:32

INMA wrote:
Feb 1st, '19, 13:50
Martin, I hear what you say about your current rig limiting your ability to sail when and where you want to be.
Thanks for your comments.
INMA wrote:
Feb 1st, '19, 13:50
Changing your Astral 20 to another rig will make it an orphan. The day you decide to sell an orphan yacht is the day you will realise the true cost of modifications.
I agree. A big modification, like this, will write practically write off the value of the hull, which is maybe $5K to $7K. I don't have piles of spare thousand dollar bills lying around, but it is a comparatively small loss compared to buying a new boat, and finding you don't like it. I've always considered My Austral as a learner boat, which gives me some freedom in stuffing it up without feeling too bad about it. (Though I would prefer not to stuff it up completely).
INMA wrote:
Feb 1st, '19, 13:50
A rigger is probably the best person to advise regarding buying new to get where you want.

I stayed clear of this discussion because I could only think of complex modifications like reinforcing the cabin to take the loads from that carbon mast.
Hence my comment about moving the compression post. The current post sits on top of a sheave assembly in the keel box. I could probably move it forward, by about a foot, before I fall off the front end of the sheave assembly, which is a minor, and reversible modification.
INMA wrote:
Feb 1st, '19, 13:50

I understand why you want to keep the Astral, they are a bit of a Tardis when it comes to accommodation.

I'd propose a lower cost modification that allows you to retain the standard Astral rig if you decide to sell the yacht while providing you with an improved sail plan.

Consider removing the Austral rig and furler completly and putting it in storage. Then install a 14 foot skiff rig on the Astral to give you a light efficient rig that should meet your needs.

RL24s often use 16 foot skiff rigs as a cheap way to get an efficient racing rig, I'm assuming the 14 foot skiff rig would be close to the requirements of the Astral. It might be that the 16 foot skiff rig is also suited to the Astral.
I like the idea of a reversible modification.
INMA wrote:
Feb 1st, '19, 13:50

The skiff rigs need a bit of modification to suit the keel yacht, things like moving the rig forward and aft for balance is an obvious issue. The skiffs have a light mast, you would install a wire forestay and hank the jib on with a halyard and downhaul. The swept back spreaders would need attachment. the mainsheet position near the end of the boom is probably the simplest option and there are no backstays. The main halyard is externally fitted over a sheave in the top of the mast.

The lack of reefing is something you will live with, the efficient fractional rig with no need for headsail changes will make you a happy skipper.

Second hand skiff rigs are reasonably easy to find in your area, compared with the other options considered on this thread, a skiff rig sounds good to me. I tried to make it sound simple, these things are never easy, but if it gets too hard, you can always put the original rig on the Austral.
I'll need to look more into skiff rigs.
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Re: What would I lose or gain by changing my masthead rig to a gaff?

Post by INMA » Feb 4th, '19, 11:29

Martin, skiff rigs do not have the preload in the rig compared with masthead rigs. In fact they rely on the rig flexing under load.

Given the expense of new standing rigging, you might save some time and money doing the standing rigging yourself in synthetics.
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