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PostPosted: May 7th, '18, 19:50 
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The parabolic springs are only available as slipper springs, which means you can't load share with them.

For a non load sharing tandem, you need to derate the springs by 20% to allow for unbalanced loading of the axles (eg: trailer frame not horizontal when coupled, deflecting and therefore loading one axle's springs more than the other).

Thus you can't use two pairs of 1000kg springs for 2000kg, you need to use two pairs of 1400kg, giving a rating of 2800kg - 20% = 2240kg.

If you do use slipper springs (parabolic or conventional) for a tandem, then it is worth putting some effort into making sure both springs are loaded equally when coupled to your particular tow vehicle on flat ground.

This is particularly important if you're towing with a low towball such as a Falcon wagon which will tend to put more load on the front axle and thus have an effect on stability similar to insufficient drawbar weight. We raised the from mounting point for the front slipper axle on Ray's tandem, lowering the coupling to the correct height for his Falcon wagon. He tells me it has greatly improved the stability!

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PostPosted: May 7th, '18, 19:55 
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Notwithstanding any so-called science Alko and other trailer maker & parts suppliers no longer use galvanised springs.
Cheap & shoddy chinese manufacturers obviously haven't studied the same science. Too many breakages.

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PostPosted: May 7th, '18, 20:19 
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Tinggu wrote:
bachus wrote:
There was a Clubman 8 I considered a long long time ago. The trailer was coated with something called PQR and the chassis members oil filled.

Thanks Bacchus. This perhaps: https://www.por15.com/ ?
Its blurb says it is very good. What was your impression of the trailer you saw?
I have sent a request for more info to Australian suppliers http://www.ppcco.com.au/por.html


Never sighted sir.
Perhaps the best - would have bought it I think.

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PostPosted: May 7th, '18, 20:32 
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IMO slipper spring tandems are for yard trailers. The only trailer I had experience with slippers was the motor sailer. I did not have any problems but a couple of times I thought two of the tyres might burst when one axle took all the load. That being said I have seen a few Noelex road trailers with slippers and not heard of any problems.

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PostPosted: May 7th, '18, 20:37 
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Zeb's comments regarding derating springs extends to similar derating for axle's suspensions and brackets.

Other comments re breakages, my guess is the failure rate of trailer springs is unaccepably high regardless of whether the springs are galvanised, black or painted.

From earlier discussions on this site regarding boat trailer suspension failures, I believe there are serious deficiencies in the design, maintenance and use of the trailers.

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PostPosted: May 7th, '18, 20:53 
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colect149 wrote:
IMO slipper spring tandems are for yard trailers. The only trailer I had experience with slippers was the motor sailer. I did not have any problems but a couple of times I thought two of the tyres might burst when one axle took all the load. That being said I have seen a few Noelex road trailers with slippers and not heard of any problems.


The rear slippers on my nx occasionally slip out of their carrier ( if I turn too sharp, which I do most tuesdays) . I've only had it happen once whilst travelling , and thankfully picked it up with the first sway.....but if / when I rep,ace them I'll be going load sharing

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PostPosted: May 7th, '18, 20:58 
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Considering what a tandem trailer is worth, saving a hundred bucks by using slipper springs instead of load sharing seems rather short sighted to me. We rebuilt Ray's trailer with slippers because we already had all the parts, but if we'd been buying new springs, etc, then I'm sure Ray would have gone load sharing.

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PostPosted: May 7th, '18, 23:46 
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And here's a reply from Rust Bullet. Wow, more durable than galvanising:
"Hi Peter
Thank you for your e-mail.
I would use the Rust Bullet Industrial if you where painting the trailer or Rust Bullet Automotive if you are spraying the trailer.
Rust Bullet Info

The big advantage of using Rust Bullet:

Ø It is a Single pack application!!

Ø Rust Bullet not only kills existing rust, it seals and protects surfaces that have not yet started to rust, providing years of prevention!

Ø Superior Adhesion

Ø Scratch, Chip and Chemical Resistant

Ø UV resistant

Ø Strong Weather Resistance in All Climates and Below Sea Water
I would get 2 to 3 Quarts. Please paint as many coats as you can and make sure the trailer is totally dry before applying Rust Bullet. Do you want to spray or paint it on?

I would suggest you get the solvent because it is good to thin the Rust bullet when it gets thick and if you pour some in the pot before closing, will prevent air from activating the rest of the Rust bullet. It is really needed for cleaning up especially when you get some on your skin. It is a moisture curing urethane and it will stick on you like superglue if you don’t clean it up strait away- it will be on you for a week. One liter should be enough.
It is a special solvent, please do not use thinners or turpentine!

Rust Bullet Quart about $95.00, Solvent 1l about $28.

Mate can you please send me your Full address - Physical address for courier to deliver Rust Bullet. I then, can send you a quote with costs to deliver. Let me know how much you want to order?

Peter they use Rust Bullet on the outside and inside of military ships. Its more durable than hot dip galvanising and easy to repair if compromised.

Kind Regards"

I'm getting an awful lot of info, but I guess I asked for it.

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PostPosted: May 8th, '18, 02:41 
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James w gave his careel 18 keel a coating with por 15 about a decage ago, if you're interested in the details it might be worth sifting back through carrel.com to find his posts?I don't think he visits here any longer, but you may be able to get in contact with him over there?

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PostPosted: May 8th, '18, 09:57 
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Thanks Paul, but the Australian importers of POR 15 no longer handle it. Doubtless that it is good gear, but as there are alternatives I don't think I'll be getting it sent from the US. Rust Bullet reckon their product is HEAPS better, even than hot dip galv. Today I'll be having a chat with galvanisers re price and how I need to prepare the frame.
PS note to mods: I posted this just now but it vanished, so I'm posting it again. If the original pops up please delete it. Thanks, Pete)

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PostPosted: May 8th, '18, 10:08 
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Thank you people for confirming my suspicion of parabolic slipper springs. In fact the ALKO specs for the part number recommended are 1400kg per pair. Paul's comment about them slipping out of the carrier makes sense too. The sideways pressure on a tandem looks a bit scary sometimes. I wonder why parabolic are not made eye to eye? Leaf springs and loadsharing remains my best option. It is decided! Thanks for your input. Having little practical experience and no technical knowledge I would still be wondering what to do without it.

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PostPosted: May 10th, '18, 17:37 
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Tomorrow I pick up the new tacked frame.

Just had this exchange with ALKO:

"Message: It seems to me Dacromet is a cheaper and less effective protectant than hot-dip galvanising. If I were to buy a set of your black springs would I be able to have them galvanised by a 3rd party? Would it affect temper? Would the spring leaves need to be disassembled or can the whole spring set be dunked in the hot dip?
Thanks,
Pete

ALKO's reply:
"Hi Pete,
The official answer is no, because of the changes to the spring steel while being acid cleaned then gal dipped it is
Advised not to galvanise your springs.
It is even stated in VSB1 vehicle standards bulletin as being not advised.
Regards,
Andrew McColl
Customer Service Officer – Southern Region"

I've found the relevant item:

Attachment:
Screen Shot 2018-05-10 at 4.30.29 pm.png
Screen Shot 2018-05-10 at 4.30.29 pm.png [ 60.88 KiB | Viewed 311 times ]


Can anyone recommend a Victorian spring works? Perhaps I'll have to settle for Dacromet after all. Sigh. What a root.

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PostPosted: May 10th, '18, 23:49 
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I've used Bairnsdale spring works for modifying my car springs ( decambering the rear leaf springs in my triton) - that was about 18 years ago but those springs are still going fine.

Can anyone explain why the springs under our cars seem to last so much better than our trailers? Even vehicles used on beaches don't seem as rust prone as the average boat trailer.

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PostPosted: May 11th, '18, 09:28 
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pdandy wrote:
I've used Bairnsdale spring works for modifying my car springs ( decambering the rear leaf springs in my triton) - that was about 18 years ago but those springs are still going fine.

Can anyone explain why the springs under our cars seem to last so much better than our trailers? Even vehicles used on beaches don't seem as rust prone as the average boat trailer.



While we are at it Paul maybe we can explain why wheel bearings on car can last hundreds of thousands of kilometers without any servicing and yet a normal greased trailer bearings often break down in less than 500 K's despite annual or more often servicing. Sure I solved the bearing problem by installing oiled bearings (touch wood and cross my fingers) but car bearings are not oiled yet they outlast trailer bearings many times over.

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PostPosted: May 11th, '18, 11:59 
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Wanton, perhaps a car /Suv used on beaches will also get a lot of road Kms in the rain which naturally flushes some of the salt away?







/r

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PostPosted: May 11th, '18, 12:29 
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That may be true Colect, but you know the trailer is towed behind a car and on my part at least, I do wash the boat and trailer very carefully after I return home. I never wash the underneath of the car, ever. You may be right, but I just think there must be more at play when it comes to the forces that impact in a boat trailer. PS: I hope that you are faring well.

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PostPosted: May 11th, '18, 14:49 
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Comparing car and trailer springs is possible with some simple calculations. The spring calculations come down to an energy factor where higher stressed springs hold more energy. Bigger springs can hold more energy hence they suit higher loads.

The springs installed on our tandem trailers are very light compared with a commercial trailer. About 20 years ago I was involved in the trialing of the army light trailers, the smallest trailer being a heavy duty tandem trailer with 16 inch wheels and override brakes. I can't remember its rating but it was about 1200 kg load and 2,000 kg ATM. I recall the axles being 50mm square the springs, suspension and frame were massive. It was designed to be towed by a Landrover offroad at modest speeds and on 1st class roads at the speed limits.

Our boat trailers have been assembled with the lightest duty construction the manufacturers and dealers could get away with. The Army testing included a second class dirt road, none of our trailers loaded with their boats would last 8 hours without minor and major failures on that second class road (they are not made for even medium duty use).

There are exceptions, I know of a Nolex on a new trailer that would go close to medium duty ratings.

The reason car springs last longer than trailer springs is they are better designed and developed before production and things like shock absorbers and better rubber bushing control the energies in extreme situations.

I have a quiet laugh every time I see Landcruisers and the like on Tv with upgraded springs and other bits to carry the winch, bullbar and towbar. I LMAO when I see these upgrades being sold with a new compliance plate so the heavier vehicle can do its original 3500 kg ATM rating. I can live with suspension changes to improve load carrying but carrying more load after the modification is a joke. Why did I mention this, because the idiots changing compliance plates on light commercial vehicles have a similar thought process to those selling boat trailers with light duty suspensions.

If you want a boat trailer that will do 200,000 km without failures (last like the tow car), it will probably weight 1,000 or more which most of us will not buy.

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PostPosted: May 11th, '18, 18:19 
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Thanks inma, but why do trailers RUST so quickly?

I've got a 10 year old box trailer that started rusting the day I bought it, yet the undercarriage of my 20 year old ute are rust free ( ish) . It can't just be the thick protective layer of mud?

Different metals? In which case, what's stopping us using car springs under our trailers?

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PostPosted: May 11th, '18, 18:39 
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A lot of preparation goes into cars to make sure the paint provides a thorough protection via several layers of paint (and often galvanised steel panels).

Most box trailers have a spray gun waved in the area of the trailer till it looks saleable.

Zeb and I share an old box trailer that has probably outlived several tow cars. Its got rust and repairs in all the usual places.

Pay the bill to have a commercial trailer properly painted or galvanised and rust won't be a problem.

Its sometimes about the skills of the fabricators but mostly cost.

Remember the cars post second world War that would disappear in a ball of rust from the first time they got wet. Then the metallurgists figured out a few improvements in manufacture and the rust war was slowly being won.

Ad the salted roads that force world car manufacturers to improve their corrosion resistance and the cars we get in Australia are pretty good as far as corrosion.

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PostPosted: May 11th, '18, 19:57 
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Active Fabrications in Beenleigh do a range of both Dacromat and Galvanised springs in Eye to Eye, Slipper and Parabolic Single Leaf Slipper.
Their catalogue notes that both Dacromat and Galvanised DO NOT have ratings.
I replaced my rusty ALKO springs with Galvanised replacements.
Before I fitted them I loosened both the clips and the centre bolts and soaked them in fish oil which I then left to dry for about a week.
Generally they were about $5/spring dearer than black springs.
Freight cost from Qld to Vic may prove to be a deal breaker.
Link: http://www.activefabrications.com.au/contact.html



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PostPosted: May 14th, '18, 18:13 
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The rebuild is progressing and the frame is welded. At present I'm cutting off bits from the old trailer that I will be recycling like the front roller brackets etc.
The main roller assembly on the old trailer is a pair of massive angles 100 x 80 x 8mm @ 3.5M with the rollers sitting up on angle supports welded to the two rails. I reckon the rails alone account for around 72kg and I can save a bit of weight by using two lengths of flat plate welded to the frame with gussets and drilled through to take the rollers, red ones.

Today's question: How far apart do you think the roller centres should be? I'm also thinking the rearmost roller will be slightly lower for ease of getting the boat on.

Looks like galvanising (Geelong) will be around $400 to $500 and take about a week. The fancy spray on finish I had been contemplating would cost (to buy) not much less than $400 so I think it's a no-brainer. Although I am a bit bemused that the Rust Bullet rep claims that his product is more durable than galvanising........

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PostPosted: May 16th, '18, 00:29 
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The rebuild goes from misery to hopeful as I dismay at the timeframe that is being munched up with slow progress while the budget blows out daily. Today I drilled all the release holes for the galvanizing and started cleaning up a few bits and pieces that we'll get galvanized along with the trailer. I've cut off as much as I can from the old trailer jn the way of salvaged brackets etc and still have it as a roadworthy trailer to take the frame to Geelong on Friday for the galvanizing, which will take about a week. Until I decided to galvanize it I had been planning to have all the hollow sections sealed, to keep the water out. Now with all the release holes and the prospect of the frame fully galvanised inside and out I will be leaving all the hollow sections open for washing and drainage.
I've ordered the steel for the new roller run down the middle and am getting it drilled for the rollers and the angled gussets to support it from town. Have ordered 10 more 300mm red rollers to go with the four I have, to make 14 in all at 200mm centres. Hope that works better than the present arrangement. Retrieving has always been a struggle. Also ordered new rollers for the EeziGuide and a new rubber block for the bow to snug into. Looks like the job is heading towards about $3K. A bit scary but the Admiral is being very supportive and we will muddle through.
Just the springs and bearings to consider now. While I'm hoping Isabella will slide on and off like silk there is always the chance of having to dunk a wheel or two so I'm hoping to put the best waterproof bearings I can. I don't think I'll be going oil filled. Next best to that?

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PostPosted: May 16th, '18, 07:57 
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My trailer has been retreiving beautifully using tilt for some time now, until recently. I notice the rearmost roller has dropped a little and I suspect this may be the problem.


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PostPosted: May 16th, '18, 23:15 
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Now I'm confused - I thought a lower leading roller was meant to help re-entry......
Is its shaft bent?

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PostPosted: May 17th, '18, 08:33 
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No, shaft is fine.


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