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PostPosted: May 13th, '16, 15:57 
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Hi all,

I'm prone to either writing epics or leaving out important information. I'll try to be concise but no doubt will manage to fail on both counts. To save you the pain of reading my life story I'll start with the question, although I'm not entirely sure what the question is.

Some of you live around the greater brisbane area, and own the larger trailer yachts. At the risk of sounding cheeky I wonder if any of you would be willing to give me a peek at your boats, and better yet let me crew for you at some point ?

The epic:

Learned to sail in the late 80's on keel boats.

Went yacht racing once, never again. Good luck to you if you like it, I don't. I'm no string twiddler, that was the worst days sailing I've ever done.

In the late 90's I discovered the catamaran, love them. Not for speed nor even flat sailing, it was the EASE of sailing that got me hooked. You just wave a bit of dacron at the wind and your off..ok I'm lazy :)

I had been boatless for these last few years. I still have my recreational rowing shell (I also love rowing), and am ready for another yacht.

The purpose is specific. Cruise up the east coast once a year to Port Douglas. Day sailing is unnecessary. Myself and possibly a lady.

I want an enclosed head, comfortable double berth and ideally a shower. I don't sail at night and stick as close to land as I can. Obviously I don't go out in bad weather and try to stay as close to shelter as possible.

I live west of the city but 2 kms from a boat ramp. I won't be towing long distances. I am aware of the weight issues.

I've long been fond of the RL28 but have not sailed on one. The accommodations are spot on and they have I believe a good reputation. Obviously I could sail the coast on a smaller boat, but I'm not aware of smaller boats with a shower.

I assume there is no need here to discuss the advantages of a trailer boat vs moored, hard stand and marina.

You might be thinking a farrier would be ideal, and it would, but to get the bathroom I'd have to go to an F9. The cheapest I've ever sen an F9 was $70k, and given you can get a good moored cat for about half that you could pay an awful lot of maintenance and storage fees for $35k+ and have a more comfortable boat to sail. I'm not a huge fan of the gigantic cruising cats, but something about 30' is still a very big boat.

So I would very much appreciate any thoughts. I've spent hours reading threads here, and elsewhere. Unfortunately no amount of reading replaces first hand experience. Nevertheless I acknowledge I may be missing something so would be happy to read any comments you have.

Thank you for reading.


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PostPosted: May 13th, '16, 16:44 
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Hi Guzzis3 and welcome

Many of the larger TS's (25 feet up) and a few of the slightly smaller one have a private head, a shower is an easy retro fit into most of these, thats certainly one mod thats on my list (along with countless others) for the winter, a couple of hundred dollars would get the job done, you can buy the sumps with a bilge pump and float switch for around $90, so dont let the lack of shower be a deal breaker

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PostPosted: May 13th, '16, 17:42 
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Thank you for the reply.

Yes I'm happy to add it in, provided there is space. I'd be quite happy with a smaller boat, but I want the accommodations.

I suppose my issue is I've not been on a displacement boat for some time, and then they were keel boats, not trailer sailors. In fact I can't remember ever sailing on a trailer sailer. I guess what I want is to try it and see how I feel about the way the boat sails and the speed available.

Whatever I get will be a compromise, that is life. I'm trying to decide what compromises I'm happiest with...


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PostPosted: May 13th, '16, 19:47 
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guzzis3 wrote:
Some of you live around the greater brisbane area, and own the larger trailer yachts. At the risk of sounding cheeky I wonder if any of you would be willing to give me a peek at your boats, and better yet let me crew for you at some point ?


Guzzis3 (Is that a reference to a two-wheeled mode of transport from Italy?), if you can get over your bad experience of racing, may I suggest you turn up at Wynnum Manly Yacht Club at about 1245 on any Sunday in season (i.e. now) and offer yourself as walk-on crew for the SAGS race? This is 'gentlemanly', no-spinnaker racing for the fun of it on all sorts of boats, rather than win-at-all-costs-by-beating-the-crew-until-morale-improves kind of racing. Of course, your experience will differ according to who you go with, but most of the time, we're short on crew and/or we'd enjoy the social aspect of messing about in boats with anyone who is interested.

Also, keep an eye on the weather - I reckon that I'm OK up to about 15 knots of wind, and need experienced help above that. Good websites for wind forecasts are BOM MetEye and SeaBreeze.

The boats in the SAGS race usually range from small-ish trailer-sailers (like mine) to mono keel-boats to luxury cats, and the race is handicapped to get us all to the finish line at the same time.

I really enjoyed my experiences as a novice walk-on-crew; I now compete when I can (sadly, not often), think its a major triumph to finish, and entertain delusions about working up the finishing order.

The good news is that you can do this without spending a cent (though a round of beers after the race does not go amiss).

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PostPosted: May 13th, '16, 21:19 
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Three guzzis? How do you intend to find time to sail?

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PostPosted: May 13th, '16, 21:25 
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Most trailer sailors are extremely stable little craft, as the saying goes, the crew wont be able to take anymore a long time before the boat wont be able to.

I have been out in some hairy conditions in a 20 footer and it felt good, and Im no thrill seeker, we just had up as much sail as we were comfortable with and trimmed on a nice heal angle, a cautious salier is a good sailor who will be around a long time to tell you about their adventures

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PostPosted: May 13th, '16, 22:26 
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pdandy wrote:
Three guzzis? How do you intend to find time to sail?

They're probably later Guzzis with electronic ignition and general reliability...

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PostPosted: May 14th, '16, 16:23 
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Right. Ok lets address those things one at a time.

Yes the pseudonym refers to the motorcycle. I've been using it online for 20 years or so. Some people seem to think hiding behind a false name online permits different behaviors to real life. I don't. I use the thing specifically to protect my online finances and so forth.

Having said that questioning the reliability of moto guzzis is likely to get you a lecture. :) I have one friend who put 2 million kilometers on his mk2 lemans before finally retiring it to the lounge room, and many more with 500,000 or more. The modern bikes if anything are less reliable.

Now back to boats.

I understand your racing is probably friendly, but I'm still reluctant. I really would prefer to focus on the boat rather than the event. I'm trying to decide whether the sailing characteristics in cruising mode are a compromise I'm willing to make. I don't think I could properly focus on that even in a casual race.

sailboatmike's comment has got me thinking. What would be the smallest/lightest TS that one could get an enclosed head/shower in ? Perhaps that's where I should start ?

I suppose the issue is that for similar money I could buy a moored cat or tri. I'd get my accommodations and my preferred sailing characteristics, but with the pain of a mooring. I'm still clarifying this in my own head, but maybe that's the choice.

Again thank you for the thoughts.


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PostPosted: May 14th, '16, 22:11 
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The real question is why dedicate so much cabin space to an internal shower? A transom shower +/- one of those pop up privacy tents, set up in the cockpit? I'm sure zeb will be along shortly with the link, but an ex member here ( ralph) used to succesfully manage this in his cal 21 . Privacy in the head usually means something over 20 ft and with a bulkhead, but if you want a fully enclosed head the farr 7500 /ross 780 / hunter 25/260 or macgregor 19 if you want ridiculous. The rl 28 is arguably a better choice for what you have in mind.


Ps zeb was referring to my old mk 3 v50 when he made the reliability comment. And I agree about the newer big blocks - having owned a v11 lm and now a stelvio.....touch wood.

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PostPosted: May 14th, '16, 22:24 
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I've been on a few yachts with enclosed heads. Never has the walls and door provided privacy on a yacht.

There are no secrets on a yacht, just an illusion of privacy.

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PostPosted: May 14th, '16, 22:26 
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Not sure where you sail but for what period is a shower a necessity? Summer / up til now it's a swim and a 125ml shower bottle at stern, winter it might be a top and tail of warm water, a week trip I'll have a shower. Now chicks, they's is different, but depends on the pillow fluff factor.... If been through smaller boats generally prepared and a shower is not a big deal, solar shower in cockpit or foredeck is a twice a week thjng.

If you are gippy and lake Mac you can plan for a shower with breaky at a hugger.

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PostPosted: May 15th, '16, 05:28 
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pdandy wrote:
The real question is why dedicate so much cabin space to an internal shower? A transom shower +/- one of those pop up privacy tents, set up in the cockpit? I'm sure zeb will be along shortly with the link, but an ex member here ( ralph) used to succesfully manage this in his cal 21.

Image

pdandy wrote:
Ps zeb was referring to my old mk 3 v50 when he made the reliability comment. And I agree about the newer big blocks - having owned a v11 lm and now a stelvio.....touch wood.

The best thing about points ignition on a bike is that you know where to start looking when the bike won't go. Which will be often. Zeb owns a BMW dating to just after the introduction of electronic ignition, when everything else was still simple.

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PostPosted: May 15th, '16, 08:41 
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There are a few smallish TS where the forward area is not dedicated to a V-berth, but is a head *** wet area. I had a boat which was a slightly extended Adventure 7 (Myora 24) and it had a nice roomy main cabin with a doorway to the forward area where there was a toilet and a cold hand shower. It just drained into the bilge and then was pumped out after the shower.

Not sure if the Bonito 22 could accommodate such a set-up and there may be others that can fit the bill that way too. For two people, we found that boat to be the best layout of all and we were also able to take a couple of kids for short stays too at times.

If you ended up with a diesel powered TS, of course there may be the option of a hot shower.

Surprised Sailboat Mike hasn't pushed the idea of Macs to you. If you are cruising close to shore and need to find shelter in a hurry, the Mac might get you to the next shelter a lot quicker.

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PostPosted: May 15th, '16, 09:57 
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I got told several times yesterday by a couple of Noelex 25 owners that Macs arent even real boats nevermind sailboats! :lol:

So I would never recommend anyone buys one

To which I reminded them that no matter if It can sail or not I will still beat them back to the bar

I do love a good hearted banter session always makes my day

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PostPosted: May 15th, '16, 12:50 
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Does a 25ft Sunbird have an enclosed heads/shower?
Sorry, should have researched a bit first, it doesn't look it does, just the heads!

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PostPosted: May 15th, '16, 14:30 
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It has a enclosed head, adding a shower to most is only a minor job

Seal the head area add one of these http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Good-Boat-Ma ... SwzOxUWdxT, it can normally be plumbed into the through hull for the sink in the head

Then if you want Hot water you can sit one of these in the cockpit and run the hose into the shower http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/COLEMAN-H2OA ... SwT5tWGsq6

All up I think a good solution

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PostPosted: May 15th, '16, 14:48 
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Thank you for the replies.

I put a smiley on my comments bout the bike. YMMV but I'm a recovering ducati owner and never had a problem with a guzzi in 20 years, however I don't take such things seriously. Having said that if you bait me :D

I realise there are ways around the internal shower thing. As I said in my origional post I'm sailing the east coat from brisbane to port douglas, marina hopping wherever possible. Let me make this suggestion: If you want to bring "need" or "logic" into this then the sensible solution is quantas. Sailing let along boat ownership has nothing to do with any of that. I have decided after much deliberation, and for entirely my own reasons, that I want an internal permanent shower. Plumbing it I can sort, it's finding a boat with the headroom and cabinspace to accomodate it. As I mentioned previously I've had little to do with trailer sailer monohulls. I have known about the RL28 for some time and thought that a good beginning. Something a bit smaller and lighter would be welcome.

Regarding Macgregors I admire their business model. They are one of the few making proper money out of sail boats, or perhaps boats fitted with sail. I like the water ballast idea, although that approach is flawed for obvious reasons, but on a trailer boat it has merit. I like the cabin aswell. I'm properly not interested in religeous wars. Bait me and I'll play but don't expect meto care very much. Everything is a compromise, if your happy with yours I'm happy for you.

The outboard holds no interest. I sailed for years on boats with no motor at all and am constantly bewildered at the "need" some people have for not only a minimum auxiliary, but a giant motor "just in case" they get caught on a lee shore in a swell with a driving current. For goodness sake, sell the boat and buy a plane ticket.

pdandy thank you for the following. I'll see if I can find something on these boats. farr 7500 /ross 780 / hunter 25/260. Are there any boats in the larger sizes to avoid ? Again potential religious war but occasionally someone produces something truly awful and I'd like to avoid that if possible.


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PostPosted: May 15th, '16, 16:13 
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In all honesty its hard to beat Macgregor, there are no issues with water ballast, its been used for years and ocean going ships use it, i mean the tall ships that explored the world had rocks for ballast in the bilge and you didnt see them falling over at a gust of wind.

I find mine handles rough water better than most, they can get a bit squirrely in h following sea because of the wide transom, but I use the head sail to counter that and it settles beautifully. Most of the bad behaviour reported about Macs is just poor seamanship, and as they say a poor workman blames his tools.

Like every boat you have to get to know its own strange idiosyncrasies.

They use Macs for blue water sailing in the USA, making the jump across the gulf to the Caribbean

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PostPosted: May 15th, '16, 16:20 
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Ok, so since you're certain about the inside shower - how much headroom do you need? Ie roughly how tall +/- are you ok with a sit down shower?

Very few trailer yachts really have true standing headroom for anyone over 5'10" - even the macavan needs normal height people to duck when walking around ( don't believe the brochures....)

Most 23-26 footers rely on a pop top to imitate standing headroom - which doesn't help you obtain standing shower room .

Ignore the images from the brochures at http://www.johncrawfordmarine.com.au/tr ... er/library
Most of them have petite women trying to destract you from the real proportions....

I think a later ross 780 has about 6' , a sonata 26 would have 5'10 up to the keel case, but most of the other tall trailer yachts get very heavy - rl 28 /sc25 etc.

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PostPosted: May 15th, '16, 16:49 
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Thank you again for the replies. Very helpful.

I'm 5'6". My ladyfriends are usually the same height or a little shorter. It would be nice to stand but sit down is bearable.

I've nothing against macgregors, in fact if a mac 36 (catamaran) came up in australia for a sensible price I'd look seriously at it. I've looked hard at the 26s and I like many things about them, but I'd rather an RL28 to be honest. And with the money macs come up for in the USA compared to the asking prices out here if I were to buy one it'd be an import.

I've been poking about in light of previous information. Can someone explain the difference between a sonata 26 and a sonata 8 ?

The RL28 has the accommodations I'd prefer, they seem to be well known well thought of and well priced nowadays. As I said I've not sailed on one and am still deciding if I want to return to ballasted boats. If there were something a little smaller and lighter with similar accommodations at a decent price I'd like to look into that boat. Maybe there is a 25' that fits the bill ?

Anyway off to search the forum again for threads on sonatas... :)


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PostPosted: May 15th, '16, 17:06 
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sailboatmike wrote:
It has a enclosed head, adding a shower to most is only a minor job

Seal the head area add one of these http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Good-Boat-Ma ... SwzOxUWdxT, it can normally be plumbed into the through hull for the sink in the head


Actually if there was room you could plumb the galley heads sink and shower into that and have it pump out into a bladder holding tank in the bilge, then discharge when legal. That's a neat thing.

Quote:

Then if you want Hot water you can sit one of these in the cockpit and run the hose into the shower http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/COLEMAN-H2OA ... SwT5tWGsq6

All up I think a good solution


The coleman is overkill. I'd rather spend on batteries and solar and run a heated shower head, but each to their own. I think I've not got over the multihull obsession with weight. First thing I thought of when I saw the coleman, how heavy is that ?? :D


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PostPosted: May 15th, '16, 17:22 
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A great setup on the Blazer 31 head was a 2 way valve (correct term gets changed by site) on the sink drain; one out through hull, one to an inline pump. You want a shower, switch the valve boil the kettle and fill the sink, flick the pump switch.
Most large yachts have a shower 'seat' (a) if its rolly, its a hell of alot easier, and (b) it keeps the crapper dry.

The S26 has a larger cabin profile and much better fit out (2 designs, stb longitudinal galley of port side trans-galley . The head is 'enclosed', port side of keel case in so far that its private There is no bilge in the S26, so no shower options I can think of below, as even if you built up a 'tray' in the head its too tight ands close to the v berth, especially if the vberth has been extended.

Cheers,
Mat.

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PostPosted: May 23rd, '16, 18:02 
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Hi Guzzi3
I thought I might jump in here and add my bit to the subject of towing and what you said about your tow bar capacity.

(I finally got round to crawling under the ute last night to look at the towbar. Luckily it's a 2300 kg one and I've got the transmission cooler, so towing is legal. The ford literature mentions brake pads also, no real way to tell if they are in place, but I always use bendix anyway which are the best.)

The specs for an AU ute state a legal maximum tow weight of 2050kg which should be okay for a lot of trailer sailers but some of the larger ones will weight lots more than that

Cheers and happy hunting
Hylton

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PostPosted: May 24th, '16, 21:54 
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olddog642 wrote:
Hi Guzzi3
I thought I might jump in here and add my bit to the subject of towing and what you said about your tow bar capacity.

The specs for an AU ute state a legal maximum tow weight of 2050kg which should be okay for a lot of trailer sailers but some of the larger ones will weight lots more than that

Cheers and happy hunting
Hylton


Where did you find that specification ? According to my literature the regular towpack is 1600 and the HD towpack is 2300. Both are for autos, manual cars are much less.

And thank you for the comment :)


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PostPosted: May 24th, '16, 22:21 
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http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/macedon/ ... 1113742655

There are always optimists. Usually they are sellers with ridiculously overpriced items, this one is an optimistic buyer. An RL28 WITH TRAILER for $15k ?


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